Here it comes, God’s judgment—Irene—on the east coast. Isn’t it about time? You don’t think God can stand idly by when all that sinning and warring and drugging and sexing and lying is going on, do you? Just because Jesus took all of the sins of all of the people for all of time into Himself and did away with all of them and is not counting any of them, that doesn’t mean all, right? If the wages of sin is death, then Somebody’s got to pay, Somebody’s got to be judged, right?
Right.
"It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor)." 2 Corinthians 5:19; Amplified Bible
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It's not everyone that gets to live with such wisdom...
ReplyDeleteYou know that is gonna be coming off a bunch of pulpits this Sunday, especially on the heels of the earthquake...Now if we can only follow Jesus and finish His finished work and complete what He completed we can earn our way through the pearly gates...smh
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 5:19
ReplyDeletethat God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. =D
I looked up all in the dictionary and it means all. It looks to me Jesus already took the full punishment for our sins.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I read a couple of commentaries today where pa$tor$ actually believe that God is judging the east coast citing the earthquake and Irene. (And they'll know we are Christians by our love....)
ReplyDeleteRalph ... God poured out every bit of His wrath on Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteSuch wise friends you have, Ralph and Sarah!! Love all those comments!
ReplyDeleteJesu paid it all.... All to him I owe.... Sin that left a crimson stain..... He washed it white as snow.
ReplyDeleteRalphie, You know it is NOT in a perfectly loving and perfectly just God's nature to instigate judgement until the proper and preordained and designated time....don't you?
ReplyDeleteRalph, you are such the instigator!!
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing is, people who don't know you or the truth you know would nod and say "amen!" to this.
ReplyDeletesad people would think such a thing
ReplyDeleteAnd there you have it! Corinthians 5:19.
ReplyDeleteYOU rock Ralph!!!
ReplyDeletePlease tell me you're not serious, Ralph. Please!
ReplyDeletePaul, you know me well enough to sense the steady current of sarcasm making my point.
ReplyDeleteYep. He's been "judging" the west coast for so long, guess it's about time for us to get our due diligence. ;)
ReplyDeleteIt's so unbelieveably sad to think that some have not known the "judgement:" that was entrusted to Christ taken in his body and fully punished. But we can look at these circumstances as opportunities to share.. while it is still day.
ReplyDeletelol
ReplyDeleteWell, there is no doubt, the earth (nature) is crying out for Jesus's return as scripture said it would, and with it, I join in saying "Come, Lord Jesus, COME !"
ReplyDeleteO praise God Ralph...I don't know you yet ...and I had to really stop, take pause and pray. Whew! Amen.
ReplyDeleteRalph - apparently I don't know you too well. As I was reading your status, I kept on thinking 'he can't be serious... no...really?' LOL His grace is sufficient for us,
ReplyDeleteYeah Ralph. If the East Coast is up for judgment then Yhwh needs to send a hurricane smack over the center of Colorado!!! Good word bro!
ReplyDeleteHere in the midwest we've been good little boys and girls, so there's no judgment coming our way!
ReplyDeleteMy wit (a word I prefer over sarcasm) might one day be the death of me—I don’t know. But I did consider writing the following as my status: “All those who think the east coast deserves the wrath of God in the form of Irene, say, “Amen!” And if you agree, post this as your status.” Think that would have been good?
ReplyDeleteI enjoy your "wit". :)
ReplyDeletePastor Ralph, I think your wife beat you in the wit competition with her reply to this.
ReplyDeleteChanneling Pat Robertson are we? lol
ReplyDeleteWell, yeah, Jeff. How's it looking on me?
ReplyDeleteDoing a good job my friend. When are the lightening bolts coming down from the throne?
ReplyDeleteDid you ever notice that those who cry "God's judgement" during natural disasters are typically not those who are affected by them? To proclaim God's judgement on others is to proclaim that they deserve judgement whereas I do not. At the least this incorrectly measures sin and at the worst it does not understand grace.
ReplyDeletesteve bradshaw
o.k. Loving to play devil's advocate over here...but...God does judge sin. And that sometimes plays out in His creation. Call it a "wake-up call" that some could use to turn to God in repentance. It has nothing to do with God's finished work being added to, yet everything to do with God's creation "groaning" and time as we know it coming to a close in God's time. The east coast may not deserve the wrath of God, but (and I'm not saying this is the case with H. Irene), there IS such a thing as God's wrath.
ReplyDeleteOK, Ralph; my bad...We've had this "Religion" discussion before, but usually I'e liked what you had to say. Needless to say I was worried; I need to have more faith in my own judgement. Keep it real, buddy!
ReplyDeleteJeff, as soon as I can motivate Him to start bringin' the power!
ReplyDeleteLight it up baby! lol
ReplyDeleteI, for one, enjoy your "witt" too. ;^)
ReplyDeleteLori, you’ve mixed a lot of things together in your comments, but God DID judge sin, He DID do something about it, and He is not now counting men’s sins against them. That doesn’t mean we don’t reap trouble or decay when our behavior goes badly. If I sit around in my pajamas, drink bourbon all day and constantly yell at the neighbors there will be a cost, but it won’t be from God. His anger was at sin itself, not at YOU (Rom 1:18). All by Himself(!), God took care of the problem and reconciled man. That’s the message of the gospel. Ain’t that good news? It ought to be. Whether anyone or any place or you “deserves the wrath of God” is immaterial. That’s the cross.
ReplyDeleteRalph, go back and read my post. God's anger is at sin, but you are confusing the issue. If you do practice the above, the cost WILL be from God. God is a loving parent. If one of your girls' did something horribly destructive that could ruin their life, you would definitely administer a consequence. Yes, God absolutely reconciled man with Himself. That does not mean that God never administers consequences. Note. please, that I did NOT say that H. Irene was a consequence. However...if it makes the sinner take notice of his behavior and look to something bigger than himself...is that a bad thing? Hate to bring this up because its going to open up a whole new can of worms; but, in a nutshell, God definitely administered consequences in the Old Testament and quite a few of them were at at the level of H. Irene. Fast forward to New Testament and just a thought to ponder; if we refuse to
ReplyDeleterepent, God grace changes from mercy shown as grace, to mercy shown as judgment. BUT IT'S STILL MERCY, JUST THE FLIP SIDE OF GOD'S MERCY. We often put ourselves back under judgment because of unrepentant behavior. And it is up to God as to how that plays out. We do not often get those choices.
Well, Lori, I respectfully disagree. You're blending together two covenants, Old and New, and one of them is done, over, while the other is in force. We can never put ourselves "back under judgment" because judgment has met Jesus. And you're making a story about how God might be like a parent, even though scripture reveals the truth. God's grace is not "mercy shown," but something far more. Let's chat another way (by phone?), another day, and be content to disagree on this one. Off I go to BBQ. . .
ReplyDeleteRalph, thank you for the respectful disagreement. God never "took back" the 10 commandments. He fulfilled them. Sorry, but not biblical to "not put yourself back under judgment." Grace IS amazing. It is NOT permissive. Chat later, then, have a great BBQ.
ReplyDeleteLori, pardon me for butting in, but it sounds like you're confusing discipline with judgment.
ReplyDeleteMark, sorry, there is no confusion there if you know The Bible.
ReplyDeleteRespectfully, I'd agree with Ralph that God's judgment against sin was settled at the cross. I know there are times in my life when God has disciplined me, as He "disciplines those He loves," just as a parent does, which you noted. But my sin was already dealt with on the cross.
ReplyDeleteMark, yes...but that's not really what the discussion was about. It somehow segwayed into this direction and went off course.
ReplyDeleteIt's true, technically, according to the vocabulary used above, that God never "took back" the 10 Commandments. And Christ did indeed /fulfill/ the law. But then... but then... it was "wiped out," "taken out of the way" and "nailed to the cross!" (Col 2:14)
ReplyDeleteThe law was "against us" and "stood opposed to us" (same verse), as it was the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation" (2 Cor 3:7-9), so thankfully God did what He did in Christ, by taking it out of the way, wiping it out and nailing it to the cross! Whew!!!
And so "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, **not counting their sins against them**", because the written code that had been against us was now "taken out of the way" ("canceled").
And so judgment is taken care of, once and for all. It was on Christ, who "became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." And so it /is/ biblical for a person to not put himself back under judgment! God isn't doing it (because the judgment went upon Christ), so there is absolutely no reason for us to put ourselves under judgment!
So glad you posted this! there are many people who truly think that. i do not understand how Christians could think like this after reading the Gospels. we needa pray for the church and its pulpits...it truly hurts my heart to know how churched people perceive God. can you imagine what the Lord feels :((((( He Who knew no sin became sin for US that WE might become the righteousness of Christ... one day His wrath will come but we will be gone......................... thanks Ralph!
ReplyDeleteI have been thinking the exact same thing Ralph! AMEN!
ReplyDeleteJoel, He cancelled our "legal indebtedness" to Him, that is a far cry from negating the 10 Commandments and the law...which we fall under if we refuse to repent. Sorry, but we DO put ourselves back under judgment if we refuse to repent.
ReplyDeleteChrist is the culmination of the law. Romans 10:4. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10. The law was a GOOD THING. Somehow Christians think that the word "judgment" is a loaded with hell term. It isn't. It was ordained by God. God simply brought the law (a good thing in its time) to a fulfillment in Himself. But He never abolished it.
Matthew 5:17:
The law was indeed holy and good and just. But to us, it was the ministry of death and condemnation. It was "against us" and "contrary to us." And so the law was "nailed to the cross."
ReplyDeleteWe are free in Christ, and judgment is not upon us, because the law has been "taken out of the way" and "wiped out." If the law is still in effect, then we are under death and condemnation!
Lori, why would a believer with the mind of Christ (I Cor. 2:16), a divine nature (II Peter 1:4) and a spirit that is in union with Christ (I Cor. 6:17) not repent? Trying to understand how they would refuse to repent ... ?
ReplyDeleteThere are two ways to not be still under the death and condemnation that came through the law.
ReplyDelete1) To keep it perfectly. Repentance is not good enough for the law. Only perfection.
2) To have the law nailed to the cross, thereby doing away with the written code that was against us.
We are either under the law, and have to keep it perfectly, or we are dead to it.
Did you ever notice that those who cry "God's judgement" during natural disasters are typically not those who are affected by them? To proclaim God's judgement on others is to proclaim that they deserve judgement whereas I do not. At the least this incorrectly measures sin and at the worst it does not understand grace.
ReplyDeleteAnd speaking of being dead to it, Gal 2:19-21 and Romans 7:1-6 both make the case that we had to /die to the law/ in order to be "married to" or "joined to" Christ. If we are still under the law, then we cannot be joined to Christ.
ReplyDeleteSome call it "spiritual adultery".
ReplyDeleteYep indeed, Mark. If one is "married" to Jesus and yet goes back to that which he supposedly died to in order to be married to Him, that would effectively be spiritual adultery!
ReplyDeleteJoel, again: go back and read Matthew 5:17. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
ReplyDeleteChrist's words. I rest my case. You are taking scriptures out of context, it does not work when you read Old and New Testament in entirety.
Yep, Jesus didn't come to abolish it. And He didn't. He fulfilled it.
ReplyDeleteAnd then... it was nailed to the cross.
Mark and Joel...you guys are torquing verses. There is no spiritual adultery applied here. What you died to is SIN, not the law itself.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 5:17 is true, just as Col 2:14 is true. They happened in order.
ReplyDelete(Col 2:13b He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Romans 7:4
ReplyDeleteSo, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
Galatians 2:19
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
The Law didn't die--we died. We have no relation to it ... As Paul said in Galatians 2:21, "If righteousness came through the Law, then Christ died for nothing!"
ReplyDeleteAnd last but not least, Romans 3:31: "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (*Joel and Mark, you DID catch the word "uphold" in there, right?*)
ReplyDeleteAnd with that winning verse...I bid you all good night, and good scripture. :)
Winning verse... LOL :) Context!
ReplyDeleteRom 3:27-31
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
NKJV
Faith upholds the fact that the law requires perfection! Faith upholds the law! Not in the sense that it upholds it as something that people of faith are under, but rather it upholds it as something that is against us!
Gal 3:12 "The law is /not/ of faith."
wow~ when i posted my post i only read Ralph's post...but i am so enjoying these posts! the Lord HE is so Good and His Mercies Endure Forever.
ReplyDeleteFaith or Observance of the Law
ReplyDelete1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”b 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Not to mention the additional context of everything that follows that lone verse of Romans 3:31.
ReplyDeleteGee Ralph, facebook hasn't been this fun since I had to unfriend someone who dared called me Miss.....never call a Yankee Miss! Be careful lest your wit and sarcasm cause you to fall into my fields of unfriending.! I'll take Jesus any day. God can sort out the rest and I'm pretty sure He's bigger than the boogie man. Creation groans for restoration, every single last iota and we are all Image-Bearers. All means All!!
ReplyDeleteGod is bigger than the boogie man... LOL... :D My kids used to love singing that song.
ReplyDeleteRalph Harris While I’ve been busy barbecuing, you’ve been caring for each other brilliantly. Tremendous. Well done. I’m so impressed. In addition, not only are all who rely on observing the law under a curse (Gal 3:10, as Lorraine noted), but Gentiles (and that’s most of us) never had the law (Rom 2:14), were never invited into the “covenants of the promise,” and were “without hope and without God in the world” (Eph 2:11-13). Only now have we been brought near through the death and blood of Christ. That’s the new covenant. Jesus fulfilled the exacting requirements of the former covenant and created a new one in Himself, where all judgment is given to Him. We have no relationship to the law; we’re not sons of Mt. Sinai (where the law was born and which makes slaves), but sons of the Jerusalem that is above and makes free men (Gal 4:21-30). Hooray for God! And hooray for us. Good night, friends.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it isn't as dire as you predict Ralph. Maybe it's just another hurricane and just another earthquake ... like our planet has experienced millions of times before. The fact that we don't quite understand all about these natural phenomenons doesn't mean we have to surrender our human desire to know more about what makes them happen.
ReplyDeleteJust happened to catch your post, Sam, before going to bed. My post was entirely sarcastic, but you're not the only one to have missed the wit. I meant that the hurricane (or earthquake before it) is NOT a sign of God's wrath or judgment, since that's already over with via the cross. "Somebody" (Jesus) already was judged for us--we go free. I hope that clears it up, Sam.
ReplyDeleteA friend posted the verse I cited in my original post as found in the Amplified version: It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor). 2 Corinthians 5:19
Thanks to everyone and I mean everyone. This dialogue really provoked me this morning. It was almost like watching a boxing match with two of my favorite fighters. I love them both. The law that shows me I am a sinner and the clear instructions of what I need to shoot for; as close as I can get sometimes to hitting the mark (on a good day) I still can't be perfect. Fighter number two grace that clearly says I love you son, I want to believe it but I think the law fighter makes more sense but I can't do it. For now I will continue to accept God's undeniable grace and love him even more for it.
ReplyDeleteInteresting conversation Ralph. I hadn't heard of you until I saw this thread through Joel. It's sad to me that some people doggedly insist the law still applies to us as New Covenant believers. They just don't want to let it go. They miss the greater point. I will have to take a further look at your website, sounds very interesting :-). Thanks Ralph, Joel and Lorraine - it's great to have grace folks exposing the Bible's teachings in proper context. When Christ died, he fulfilled the law IN us, which is different from insisting it be fulfilled BY us!
ReplyDeleteUh oh! Lion Heart, although you've now found this Ralph dude through me, I do not take any responsibility for what ensues hereafter! You are taking your chances getting to know Ralph!
ReplyDeleteLOL... just havin' fun. :D If I had life to do over again, I'd make sure I met Ralph many years earlier in life.
Lion--good to meet you! Joel, You're right! Except the world would have been our yo-yo, our bauble, so maybe it's a good thing we've met only recently. Right?
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of bruised believers go through a "we don't need the Bible anymore 'cause we got Jesus!" phase. Ultimately, the answer is the person of Christ, of course. Yet, these days I find I would very much like to be able to understand the Bible completly through grace lenses. I get so sick and tired of people beating each other over the head with it, when it's supposed to be an inspiring revelation of love and grace.
ReplyDelete