Wednesday, June 06, 2012

Crazy Crossovers

Question:  I just heard a very famous preacher say that you can't lose your salvation but you can choose to walk away from it. He was using Hebrews 6. What are your thoughts? Can you choose to walk out of God's hand?

I have never thought that Hebrews 6 is specifically about salvation.  I believe it is about repentance, which is a re-thinking that results from a recognition of the truth.  (Frankly, I have little repentances or “awakenings” pretty regularly.)  Evidently, there are some believers who go rather crazy concerning what they once believed and shared in—the riches of their inheritance in Christ.  If they go “crazy,” or are having a “crazy episode” that continues to their passing on, I believe they are still secure and rich in Christ (He did the securing and gift-giving anyway) and, therefore, have nothing to lose.  Sure, they’re crazy as they cross over from death to life. . .but after that they’re not.  What an awakening that will be. 

After I’ve crossed over myself, I’ll want to check out some “heavenly crossing” videos in heaven’s video vault(!) of crazy people I’ve known on this earth.  Wouldn’t that be great?  Imagine it:  crazy, hardened, earth-trapped skeptic the moment before death, and then instantly enlightened, stunned and radiant, heavenly member the next.  “Whoa!  My God!” they might say.  

I think I could watch a lot of those.


  1. Gloria Torres5:58 PM

    I don't believe in apostasy among the believers. Hebrews 6 speaks of those who have experienced the Spirit in the Church but they were never part of the Church. You can backslide, but if you really belong to Him, He will keep you in the faith - see Jude 24-25: "To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. "
    been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." - It's in obvious contrast with Jude 24:25 - hence it's talking about unbelievers in the "Church" and false converts.

  2. Frank Han5:58 PM

    How funny... we just studied Hebrews 6 this past Sunday. Im a firm believer that once God chooses you as his child, you are His child eternally. Just because you fall down doesn't change the fact that you are his child (ref: prodigal son). The falling away that this scripture is referring to is someone who has witnessed God's miracles, heard God's word, even performed miracles himself, yet never knew God. I think there was an example in the Bible... I think his name is Judas or something like that.

  3. Sue Bartolomeo5:59 PM

    Thats ironic Ralph, I was just listening to Joseph Prince talk about Hebrews 6 today on you tube. I do think you can "walk away" from salvation. I believe Its a covenant, made and signed in the Blood of Jesus Christ. However, I remember hearing Charles Stanley say one time, if a person gets saved "30 years ago", and is still the exact same in life now and hasn't shown any signs of growth in the Lord, then you might want to question that persons salvation. But, to "walk away" from it, I do think if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you can, but thats the only way IMO. I am reminded of a comedian back in the day named Sam Kinison. He was raised in church, took part in many tent revivals and yet, when he got into show biz, he began to mock the Holy Spirit, mocked praying in tongues, Christianity etc.....and I "heard", just before he died from a head on collision he was screaming "No, No". Whether or not he's in heaven isn't up to me, but what I'm saying is that I do believe WE have the power to leave God, but only if we mock the Holy Spirit and walk away from Him. God has no desire to leave us. God is love.

  4. Sue Barolomeo6:00 PM

    I would like to add, I believe its really just a matter of the heart. If a Christian falls, sins and yet, continues to get back up with the help of the Lord, he cannot lose his salvation. I'm only speaking of someone who deliberately walks away from God because of a hardened heart.
    1 Samuel 16:7

  5. Gloria, you may be right. I don’t believe Christians can “fall away” from Christ either—they are secure. However, I think they can “fall away” from experiencing or enjoying what they share in. They are not out of Christ—that’s impossible—but they are weak in faith. Since Hebrews 6 does not specifically use the word “salvation,” I think the point is “repentance.” (6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, . . .) “False converts” are not mentioned, so I am reluctant to introduce that to the passage.

    Since believers have been co-crucified, co-buried, co-raised and co-seated in Christ and are now co-laborers with Him, undoing all of that seems ridiculous, especially when one considers that it was God who did it all anyway. I think He is “able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—“ (Jude 24) not because we “keep the faith,” or because He “keeps us in the faith,” but because He has done all the work already, including putting us into Himself—secure.

  6. Frank, you may be right. But I think that someone who tastes the heavenly gift, who shares or participates in the Holy Spirit, and who has tasted the goodness of the word of God (Christ) and the powers of the coming age is describing someone whom God has brought in—into Himself and into Life. One doesn’t get to participate any other way. Again, I don’t believe this passage is referring to SALVATION but to REPENTANCE. The two are not the same.

  7. Julie Larson O'Brien6:01 PM

    Jesus says that He gives eternal life to His sheep and that they will "never perish". If any sheep were to perish in any way, shape, or form, then Jesus would be a liar. No, it is not for us to choose what happens to what belongs to Jesus.

  8. Ted Nelson6:01 PM

    My God said, "I will NEVER leave nor forsake you", I'm going to hold Him to His word. :-)

  9. Brandon Kantowski6:02 PM

    I know that there is no way to "walk out of" your salvation. Once you give your life to Christ, you are His property. Your heart doesn't turn away from Him, your body does. Whats worth more? your heart or your body? Once He has changed your heart, your body will follow. As we all know He speaks to the heart, so never will a person lose their salvation. Unless mocking the Holy Spirit has occurred.

  10. Sue, I hope you’ll read the two comments I’ve made for Gloria and Frank. In addition, I think that God does the work of salvation, including giving us faith to believe and receive Him (see Ephesians 2:1-10). I think that God is in charge of our salvation, not us, from beginning to end. You and I are secure, not because we are security experts, but because God is.
    I don’t know about Charles Stanley’s example, but after reading it, I would question the fact of what God did or didn’t do in that person, too. I think we often push people to make “decisions for God” when whether or not they actually believe is not brought into question—but that IS the question! People are born of God, not by their decision, but by God’s (see John 1:12,13).

  11. Sue Bartolomeo6:03 PM

    Thanks Ralph, I just read them and its really good stuff. I think for myself, in my heart I believe one thing, and then I listen to "others" and get confused. I really appreciate the conversations and thoughts you "provoke". Really helps the walk. Bless you Brother

  12. Well, Sue, I like talking about all this, especially with people who remain in love and are open to dialog--like you are. I certainly don't think I have all truth--ha! And I'm glad to be okay with that. Still, I have beliefs and like to share them. Thank you, Sue.

  13. Brandon Kantowski6:04 PM

    When a believer messes up or backslides, its not in a literal since. People believe that messing up or backsliding is a bad thing. Its truely a blessing to mess up, because the holy spirit can now show you in a whole new light what was really going on. Your own personal revealation from God. Without any fault, there is no renewal of the mind. So i would also say repentance is the subject here. Mess up-acknowledgement-revealation or renewing of the mind-repentance or renewing of the heart. the Word from Bird.

  14. Bruno Trimarchi6:04 PM

    hi everyone thanks for sharing.
    a thought that comes to mind is about those spoken about by the apostle John the statement was made, they left the flock because they were not of the flock for if they were of the flock they would have never left the flock.
    I believe what that's saying is it's possible for someone to be amongst those following Jesus but not be saved.
    There are also people Jesus talked
    about they call prophesied in Jesus name and cast out demons in Jesus name but Jesus tells them to depart from him because he never knew them .
    so we see it's possible to speak the name of Jesus but never know him
    I believe that's what the writer of Hebrews is saying in hebrews chapters 6 and 10
    they treat the cross and the blood of Jesus as a common element like salt and pepper and don't see the blood of Christ shed on the cross as the only way they can be saved

  15. I think it’s important to remember, too, that no one in the gospels had yet tasted the heavenly gift, shared or participated in the Holy Spirit, or tasted the goodness of the word of God (Christ) and the powers of the coming age because the new covenant had not yet come. There was yet no salvation in Christ, not until He was crucified and raised.

    When once that happened, even the blasphemer goes free! Paul told Timothy that he had been a blasphemer, a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet, “the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all (1 Timothy 1:14-15).

    How amazing is that? Talk about good news—!!

  16. Sue Bartolomeo6:05 PM

    My dad, who was saved along with the rest of my family about 40 years ago, was a Pastor for some time. He had ministers in our house for years. He was cheating on my mom most of their marriage. When she found out, she still stayed with him and wanted to work things out. He made her to feel that divorcing him was against the bible. Anyways, in 2000 they were officially divorced. My dad went his way and roams from church to church, looking for a pulpit. I really feel bad for him. Several family members have said he's walked away from God, but I've always said, he hasn't "lost" his salvation. He loves God, but he's a very bound man. The life style he lives now is one in churches, and the other with woman in bed. Anyways, I know in his heart he wishes he could do it all over, but sadly, the damage is done. I pray for him. But, I really do believe he hasn't "lost" his salvation, but maybe has lost his walk with God. Its not on Gods part, its on my dads.

  17. Bruno Trimarchi6:06 PM

    God bless you Ralph A thought comes to mind when the writer of the book of hebrews speaks of the tasting the heavenly gift and of the powers of the world to come the new covenant was already established as the event of the cross already happened.

  18. Well, Bruno, you might be right. I suggest you read the additional comments I've made to Gloria and Frank, and the ones just above to see why I am reluctant to insert "fake Christians" into the mix of Hebrews 6. And thank you for commenting.

  19. Bruno Trimarchi6:06 PM

    i read all the comments Ralph and all I can say is I still stand my post as the bible says it's possible to be a phony Christian as Jesus said there are wolves in sheeps clothing. There are those out there who go through the motions of prophesying and casting out demons and Jesus in the day of Judgement will tell them to depart from them because they never really had a relationship with Jesus our God

  20. Bruno, I agree that there are “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” And I agree that there are likely “fake Christians,” or those who do not believe but dwell with Christians in community in order to gain something. However, I don’t think those people are mentioned here, so I am not willing to insert them into the text. That’s all.

  21. BenandJenny Thompson6:07 PM

    I think we tend to over-analyze the simplicity of the Gospel. In my experience, I am one of those over-analyzing people. What I've come to accept is the simple truth that Jesus said He'd never leave me nor forsake me. This fact encompasses the entire New Covenant reaching all the way back to the beginning - even before Adam and Eve. Because God can't break His own promises, He's bigger than any of our problems, heck, even bigger than His own creation (really!), I think He's capable of sticking around closer than a brother through thick and thin - after all, isn't this what Love does? If it were true we could "turn our back on Jesus", the Son would always be there, warming our backs up as a gentile reminder that he never left us. If it were true that "he'd never leave us, but we could leave Him", that would mean His power, strength and life were inferior and something less than that of the standard of perfect love. Sometimes (most times actually) I have to take a step back and see that His ways aren't our ways, and this is certain of His love for all of us. We have been saved by Him and sustained for eternity by Him. -Ben

  22. Dave Gale6:08 PM

    Makes as much sense as" You can't lose your DNA but you can choose to walk out of it".

  23. Connie Ashton Reed6:08 PM

    ‎2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
    How is it possible for us to walk away from Him? He indwells us. If we attempt to walk away, He goes with us. While the truth may not be experiential, our "feelings" do not and cannot negate truth.

  24. Dave O'Brien6:09 PM

    How does one re-uncircumcise themselves?

  25. Dave, imagine the difficulty presented by someone who gets saved and then rejects, gets saved and then rejects, gets saved. . .He would have to get un-co-seated, un-co-raised, un-co-buried, un-co-crucified, have his "union" card taken away(!), and he could no longer be a co-laborer with Christ. Whoa! That's a lot of work. But then if he got saved all over again, he would be co-crucified with Christ, co-buried. . .Isn't that fun?